13.08.2024 | Hints from the experts

Reloading an obsolete caliber, the 7.65mm French Long

Last year visiting a gun shop I saw two pistoles looking like a SIG P210 but smaller, the shop owner told me it was a French PA 1935 made by the SACM (Société Alsacienne de Constructions Mécaniques) which was developed by the same engineer than the SIG P210 Charles Gabriel Petter. I directly bought them.

My French Model 1935A 7.65mm Long stamped WaA 251

Peter used the Colt Model 1911 as a basis and designed a slimmer, trimmer reduced sized pistol. It has a 110mm barrel length, weighs only 670 gr. and is chambered for the 7.65 mm Long.

The 7.65mm Long was based on the U.S. Model 1918 .30 Ball Pistol round also known as .30 Pedersen. Those were developed for the Pedersen Device, a conversion of the U.S. Model 1903 Springfields rifle to fire in semiauto mode. The 7.65mm Long uses a rimless case 19.8mm long. The French military loads used 5.7 to 5.8 gr 88-89.5-grain) FMJ Jacketed bullet diameter 7.82-7.88mm (.308-.310 inches) at about 335 m/s (1,100 fps) from the 110mm barrel length.

The 7.65 Long is no longer in production since the end of the 60^th and only collectible ammunition are available with a high price and low quantity on this specific market. There are very little reloading data for this caliber, the original load was 0.31 – 0.33 gr (4.8-5.1 grains) of T.BIS French powder which is no longer in production. In the interesting book about this caliber ‘’Les Armes Réglementaires Françaises en 7.65 Long’’ from Jean-Pierre Bastie they indicate the .30 Pedersen was loaded with 3.5 grains of Alliant Bullsey powder and a 80 grains bullet.

In some editions of "Cartridges of the World" we can find the 7.65mm MAS (French) information with a factory load using a 85 grains bullet at 1’120 ft/s and a loading data for a cast Lyman #311252 77 grains loaded with 3.6 grains of Unique at 1’100 ft/s. No indications about the AOL or barrel length used.

There are some Vectan powders reloading data available on internet and French reloading books such as the "Guide pratique du rechargement à l’usage des chasseurs et des tireurs’’ éditions Larivière from Alain F. Gheerbrant. In this book they use the BA9 and SP2 powders with bullets of 5, 6 and 6.48 gr. (77, 93 and 100 grains) at velocities between 320 to 365 m/s (1’050 to 1’198 ft/s) however I don’t use these powders.

The maximum 7.65 Long pressure is 1’650 bar (23’931 psi) which is slightly higher than the 32 ACP 1’600 bar (23’206 psi).

7.65 Long Cases

Regarding the cases, I started with .32 Smith & Wesson Long brass, cutting the case length to 19.80mm, rim diameter to 8.5mm and also cutting an extractor groove. Afterwards I found Starline 7.65 FL cases available in Waffen Ingold (https://www.waffen-ingold.ch/) or Munitionsdepot (https://www.munitionsdepot.ch/).

I measured the water case capacity which is 11.1 grains of water in both 32 S&W Long modified and Starline 7.65 FL cases. This information is important to match the Quickload calculation with the cases used.

The water case capacity is 11.1 grains of water

Reloading dies

There are specific reloading dies and shellholder available from CH4D but they require quite a long delivery time.

In the "Handloader Magazine’’ August 2021 Mike Venturino explain he used traditional 32 ACP reloading dies and a specific shellholder to reload the 7.65 French Long.

RCBS carbide 32 ACP reloading dies were successfully used with a Lee factory crimp die to taper crimp the bullet in a separate operation. RCBS shellholder 32 ACP No. 17 will not accommodate 7.65 Long cases because of the semi-rimmed versus rimless case shape. I used a Redding N°14 shellholder.

The bullets

The choice is quite wide, there is the common H&N .309’’ 86 grains RN HS (commonly used for the .30 Luger / 7.65 Para) available in most reloading shops, the Sellier & Bellot .308’’ 85 grains made for the 7.62x25 Tokarev, and I still have several hundred M.P.F. .308 cupper plated RN 83 grains (http://www.mpf-armurerie.com/ ).

The bullet length is also important to match the Quickload calculation with the specific bullet used.

Then I started checking with Quickload to find loading data with two different powders from RS-Swiss. Starting low with 15 cartridges each charge and increasing the powder from 0.1 to 0.2 grains each load batch. I stayed with a Quickload calculated pressure under 23’000 PSI for these loads.

I used Magtech Small Pistole primers for all loads tested.

The RS 12 seems to be the best powder with a burnt rate of 100% or slightly under for the first load of 3.7 grains with 99.6%. I tester only few loads with the RS 20 due to the fact the burnt rate is not as good as the RS 12 but I did it with the idea in mind to use them in the MAS PM 1938 having a longer barrel, if one day I can find one.

After the first shooting session I realized that under 985 ft/s (300 m/s) the pistole doesn’t cycle properly each time and not at all with velocities under 900 ft/s (275 m/s). These loads were so inaccurate I don’t indicate their details hereunder.

The best results were achieved with velocities between 1’050 to 1’150 ft/s (320 and 350 m/s) without any sign of over pressure. The loads reaching 1’200 ft/s indicated in red color in the following table were quite hot and didn’t bring anything else than noise, muzzle blast and recoil, I suggest not to use them in weapons made 80-90 years ago.

Bullet

Powder

Charge
Grains

AOL
mm

Average velocity

Ft/s

m/s

Extreme
Spread ft/s

Quickload information

Burnt
%

MPF cupper

Coated 83 gr RN

BL 12.37mm

RS12

3.7

29.20

1’092

333

VT 1'055 ft/s P 16'002 psi

3.9

1’150

350

VT 1'098 ft/s P 18'190 psi

100

4.1

1’189

362

VT 1'142 ft/s P 20'341 psi

100

4.3

1’226

374

VT 1'185 ft/s P 22'652 psi

100

RS20

4.8

1’136

346

164

VT 1'155 ft/s P 19'511 psi

5.0

1’200

366

VT 1'199 ft/s P 21'480 psi

Bullet

Powder

Charge
Grains

AOL
mm

Average velocity

Ft/s

m/s

Extreme
Spread ft/s

Quickload info.

Burnt
%

H&N .309

86 gr RN HS

BL 13.48mm

RS12

3.8

30.25

1’077

328

VT 1'065 ft/s P 18'097 psi

100

4.0

1’144

349

VT 1'108 ft/s P 20'249 psi

100

4.1

1’167

356

VT 1'129 ft/s P 21'395 psi

100

4.2

1’203

367

VT 1'150 ft/s P 22'582 psi

100

RS20

4.8

1’111

338

166

VT 1'148 ft/s P 20'466 psi

5.0

1’166

355

VT 1'191 ft/s P 22'541 psi

NOTE: The above-mentioned loads functioned flawlessly in my two SACM 1935 with a 110mm barrel length and did not show signs of excessive pressure. I am not responsible for them in any other firearm.

Conclusion

As a conclusion and after several shooting sessions, taking in consideration the shooting groups which are directly linked to the smallest extreme spreads, I can recommend RS 12 powder with 3.7-4.0 grains max. with both bullets’ options.